Stringere vs. windung in rapier

[Jim Mearkle]

Over the last week, I attended a class in German rapier and later was in a discussion on stringere. I'd like to make sure I understand the two concepts.

It seemed to me that stringere is often used in a single time attack, where windung is a dui tempi move that can just as easily be used to parry and set up a counterattack.

The modern fencing binds and croises would be forms of windung, and glissades would fall under stringere.

Stringere seemed more subtle than windung.

I wouldn't say either is superior. Rather, a good swordsman would know and understand both and use whichever was appropriate for the moment.

Does anyone have anything to add? In particular, there seems to be some discussion over whether or not stringere involves blade contact.

[Tom Leoni]

Can you define stringere as you understand it?

[Jim Mearkle]

At this point in my education, it would be easier to give an example than a definition:

Using Mr Wilson's hand position terminology, engage in third, and position your middle againsty the opponent's foible. As you extend, rotate into fourth to force the opponent's blade up and out, landing a touch on the upper torso.

Similarly, if your blade is to the inside of theirs, a similar move could be made, rotating the hand into second.

The person I was listening to belonged to the "blade contact" school of thought. I haven't read Mr. Kirby's book, but if contact isn't made, then it would seem stringere is a fancy name for a disngage, or perhaps a genereal term encompassing disengages and coupes.

[Tom Leoni]

I think you are confusing many different techniques

Look at stringere as an engagement - just to keep it simple. No more, no less than that.

If you cross your blade with the opponent's so that your forte engages his foible, you have performed the action known as stringere in the Renaissance and engagement in Classical fencing.

The thrust in opposition that you described after this is an extension of stringere, not stringere itself.

Some masters such as Fabris, Giganti and Capoferro advocated stringere with little or no contact. Others like Marcelli and Di Mazo advocated contact. This is a very minor point compared to the correct understanding of angles.

As far as hand position, when you perform this action to the inside you can be in third, fourth or third/fourth. When you are outside, you can be in third, second, third/second or (more rarely) in fourth.

There is enough theory about this action to fill a whole book - if you come to WMAW or to any other pan-organizational event you will find many people qualified to show you this principle.

Tom

[James Klock]

Originally posted by Jim Mearkle
...It seemed to me that stringere is often used in a single time attack, where windung is a dui tempi move that can just as easily be used to parry and set up a counterattack.

The modern fencing binds and croises would be forms of windung, and glissades would fall under stringere.

First, I know approximately nothing about stringering, other than the most succint and meaningful summary of it that I've heard: "It means to constrain." So, any action that constrains the opponent's weapon, or body, might be stringering?

Happily, I'm a bit more up on windung (it's very possible that I was teaching the class that you referred to... a little one-hour workshop, focusing on a few fundamental principles?)

That said, I don't agree with your initial assertion about windungen being dui tempi: it's very possible to wind into a counter which defends and strikes in a single tempo. For example, start in a low guard on the inside (left pflug), and allow your opponent to take the outside line above your blade (from, for example, his right ochs). As he attacks, you wind up to left ochs, engaging his weak with your strong as you go. Extend your blade into a thrust while stepping into a demi-lunge, and you've made it into a single tempo windung on his blade.

Hope this helps!

James

[Kevin B.]

Originally posted by James Klock
First, I know approximately nothing about stringering, other than the most succint and meaningful summary of it that I've heard: "It means to constrain." So, any action that constrains the opponent's weapon, or body, might be stringering?

Happily, I'm a bit more up on windung (it's very possible that I was teaching the class that you referred to... a little one-hour workshop, focusing on a few fundamental principles?)

That said, I don't agree with your initial assertion about windungen being dui tempi: it's very possible to wind into a counter which defends and strikes in a single tempo. For example, start in a low guard on the inside (left pflug), and allow your opponent to take the outside line above your blade (from, for example, his right ochs). As he attacks, you wind up to left ochs, engaging his weak with your strong as you go. Extend your blade into a thrust while stepping into a demi-lunge, and you've made it into a single tempo windung on his blade.

Hope this helps!

James

Stringere is generally used to indicate control over the opponents blade (as Tom said, and it bears repeating, this doesn't necessarily imply blade contact). Generalisation time - any time you've got the blade position to offend your opponent with one tempo, and he needs two to offend you, you've got stringimento (mebbe wrong grammer, but you get the idea). It's also used in the sense of stingere of the body, but generally only to seek measure when the opponent doesn't have his blade in presence... I think the context there refers to constraining him from attacking you until he's dealt with the threat you're presenting?

I wouldn't know windung from a hole in the wall, but from your description, it sounds fundamentally similiar. There may be a difference if windung implies an aggressive attack? Stringere of the blade doesn't require an immediate attack, it can be used something like a feint as well, to provoke a reaction.

[Jörg B.]

First, the verb is winden .

It's basically a sliding/rotating action along the hostile steel and cannot be done without blade contact.

Cheers,
Jörg

[Stefan Dieke]

Hey Jörg et al.

Although the longsword treatises speak about up to 24 Winden it's basically two of them: the first is closing the line (what I call defensive Winden) the second is keeping the threat for the price of opening the line (what I call offensive Winden). While James is referring to the first, Jörg seems to refer to the second.

Cheers,

Stefan