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Thread: Type II wood glue, corrosive to steel?

  1. #1
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    Type II wood glue, corrosive to steel?

    I have three knives/scabbards which I made some time ago, the scabbards are made of hardwood to match the grips. Two are of ebony and one of cocobolo. The scabbards were made of two halves in the typical manner, and glued together using a standard type II wood glue.
    All three blades are rusting/corroding in spots along the edge, where it comes in contact with the glue joint. This happens repeatedly, after polishing the edge and putting the blade in the scabbard for some time, the rust will re-appear. The blades are carbon steel, one is 1095 and two are file steel, all three are single edged and the rust appears only on the sharpened edge, in the same particular spots.
    I can't think of any explanation other than that the glue is somehow causing this, even after a year plus of curing time.
    Has anyone else had this happen?
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

  2. #2
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    Im not sure what type of wood glue I used but when I fitted some shim wood into a saya. I thought that the glue was dry and so fitted the sword back into the saya. A few hours later the sword and rusted around the habaki quite severly and I was quite shocked with how corrosive the glue was.

    This has only ever happened when the glue was not dry, so in your case I suspect the wrong type of wood, or an inproperly cured piece of wood in the scabbard, although I have no experience with the types you have used. So can't help much on that front :P

    Regards,
    Will
    Last edited by william.m; 10-07-2006 at 12:00 PM.

  3. #3
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    I had some Elmer's wood glue on a sword and it rusted a little bit. However it took a really long time to do it, days probably. Don't kno what this could be.
    Every time I put on a suit for a wedding or other event, I feel like I'm wearing optimal clothing for an epic fight scene...

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  4. #4
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    Randal Graham has just put up a warning for this glue on his forum with a link to Don's site showing the rust ability of this stuff,
    very different from the original,no good for anything near steel,

  5. #5
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    The odd part to me is that it continues to corrode the blades after well over a year. This may be important info for those who make scabbards.
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

  6. #6
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    As Leo said above, Randal Graham has had major problems with titebond II and III causing rust along the edge and spine. Titebond I works ok.
    The one certainty is that I will be gone soon, and in going, so will a legion of ghosts.
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  7. #7
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    I have had the same problem with carpenters glue in my saya. I poured a little mineral oil in the mune side of my saya and have had no problems for about a month now.

    Lester

  8. #8

    glewed over

    Is RG having this problem with exotics like Justin's coco and ebony?

    It's a weird thing though, after such a time?

    If you have squeeze out in contact with the steel, the edge in particular, will never be good for the sword, I, II, III it wouldn't matter to me. With the cost to complete a custom scabbard it's not worth finishing if there is glue in it. imo.

    Using exotics just adds another unknowns from oil/resin reactions to slow drying lingering high moisture content.

  9. #9
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    The blades are only rusting where they contact the glue joint, right on the sharpened edge. The wood does not seem to be causing it at all since there is no rust appearing on the tang where the grip fits over it, nor on the flats or back of the blade.
    Given this and the other comments, I think it is certainly the glue.

    I have done this type of scabbard with contact cement without having this problem occur. The type II glue is not actually waterproof, and is a protein-based glue, I think. Humidity combined with these two factors would likely cause this problem
    Last edited by justin king; 10-09-2006 at 08:00 PM.
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

  10. #10
    I was just trying to say, not only maybe it is the wood, but where is the moisture that effects glue coming from?

    TBII nor 3 is truly ultimately waterproof- ie for use in submersion, but even II is rated beyond an occasional dampening. they are crosslinked poly vinyl- whatever that means. Cocob, ebony are slow to dry, which means conversely slow to absord more moisture when dry.

    I have been unable to find the link, not being registered at rhg might be the prob. But I didnt see Dons rusty pics either.

    I'll still keep using TB white, titey whitey you might say, even though I have a seam that finally opened up here and there-though the wood split when I tried to pry it apart-where it remained glued. I think the joint was starved in those open places and finally failed. 5 years without finish.

    So I'm not really ready to say it isn't the glue, just that it sounds weird for the cured glue to be reactive.

    with a flashlight can you see the blob? how thick is the glue joint?

    curiousity and all that

  11. #11
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    So, if the bottle does not say Titebond II or III it's a 1?
    How about the use of (CyA) cyanoacrylate instead? It means a permanent joint by comparison, but does it cause corrosion?

  12. #12
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    apologies chaps,i should have put a link in,
    http://rhgraham.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=356

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Norman B
    So, if the bottle does not say Titebond II or III it's a 1?
    How about the use of (CyA) cyanoacrylate instead? It means a permanent joint by comparison, but does it cause corrosion?
    Super glues give off vapors for a long time and cause corrosion on blades in contact with it. Or so I discovered. I stick to Hide glue used by cbinit and furniture makes for a looonnng time. Works real good on wood. Or marine grade epoxy might work. It works on hilts.
    "Do not suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberty by any pretences of politeness, delicacy or decency.
    These, as they are often used, are but three names for hypocrisy, chicanery, and cowardice.” John Adams, 1789

    "Everything the enemy least expects will succeed the best."

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  14. #14
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    Interesting. I've worked quite alot with CyA, noticed how fast it dries and cures. I thought after a few days it would be OK.
    Thanks.

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by Norman B
    Interesting. I've worked quite alot with CyA, noticed how fast it dries and cures. I thought after a few days it would be OK.
    Thanks.
    I tried useing it to seal stitches on a sheath. After a couple of days I noticed the spots. Right where the glue was on the stitchs. So, I stopped useing it. It was a mirror finish blade.
    "Do not suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberty by any pretences of politeness, delicacy or decency.
    These, as they are often used, are but three names for hypocrisy, chicanery, and cowardice.” John Adams, 1789

    "Everything the enemy least expects will succeed the best."

    Frederick the Great 1747

  16. #16
    Just to add... it has nothing to do with moisture, apparantly, it's the PH of the titebond II, which is exceedingly acidic. Or it's outgassing, I don't know.
    WHat I do know is that for sure it'll rust steel in close proximity like nothing I've ever seen before, aside from concoctions designed to do it intentionally.
    I've had half a dozen katana ruined multiple times over the last 6-8 months and never even thought of the glue, untill other warning posts were pointed out to me.
    RHGraham
    Swordsmith, Evolution Forge

  17. #17
    Hi Randall thanks for joining in.

    One reason this sounds so weird is the teeny tint amount of glue needed and the virtually invisible thickness of a glue joint- further compounded by extremes of cure time, such as Justin's year, your 6-8 months

    of the half dozen damaged over time was only at the mune?
    did you crack them open to see what or where the glue was.

    will you switch to rice glue? I also wonder why you would use tite II or was it III on such beauties.

  18. #18
    I had the problems over a period of 6 or 8 months, not knowing what the issue was, I thought it was an abnormally humid summer, which we did have mind you, but still, I was baffled, and at one point really considered selling everything, trying to refund everyone, and just quitting... it was that wierd. Not once did I think about it being the glue.

    As far as the rust formation goes, it takes only overnight or a day to form, and a few days left in the saya was extreme, deep pits, fluffy red rust, the whole bit.

    I bought a bottle of titebond II cause it was titebond, and on the lable it's pretty much stated as just being more water-resistant than standard titebond, which I've used maybe a decade, without problem.
    No reason to think it was that different.

    Well, it is. Don't use it.
    RHGraham
    Swordsmith, Evolution Forge

  19. #19
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    I wandered away from this post for a while but I am now glad that I posted it to begin with-I was pretty sure at the time I wrote it that the problem was the glue, now I am sure and it seems like this info should be spread as wide as possible. Nothing like having an expensive sword blade get ruined by a fraction of a cent's worth of glue. Thanks much for all the input, folks.
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

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